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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:01 am

djxib wrote:
CTS-VD wrote:
hey Andy welcome to the board!

is that a manual?
staggered zr1 wheels?

Hi, yes its a 6-speed, with zr1 wheels. A few performance goodies too (coilovers, forged 383, supercharger, alky) etc. Drive Smile


Cheers
Andy

your car comes off as the perfect example of too much power for the touge
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Lonewolfjulez
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:03 pm

there is no such thing as too much power. it all depends on the driver's skill.
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CTS-VD
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:49 pm

word
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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:52 pm

well i'm not going to say anyones car is too much for the touge, there is such a thing for too much power on the mtn. or rather too much usable power on the mtn.

for example: bringing a 1000hp car isn't going to do any good...even if it can handle...you'd be babying it the whole time because you wouldn't be giving it gas in the corners, and that's what the touge is all about.

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CTS-VD
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:58 pm

disagree
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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:07 am

so how are you going to "use" 1000hp on the touge?

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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:09 am

split cause this is always a good topic

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CTS-VD
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:27 am

i'm not saying you can constantly use 1000Hp, nor is that what I'm really about.

but think about it there are turns and moments where you don't use all your power (or even a tenth of it), and plenty of times where you are.

with more power you have to use more discretion

with the moderate power I'm packing, there are plenty of times where I could put more to use.

I don't mean to throw everything else to the wind. with more speed you need more brakes, control, tire, etc...

and a 1000 hp car would probably exhibit the worst accordion effect in group running but what the heck

so yeah at some point there is more likely too much power for the car as a package, or for a driver, for a certain moment (I know I've seen that plenty)...whatever

it's all about control
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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:32 am

yes balance is key

i mean if you have 800 or whatever hp and you can actually get traction on one of the straights then by all means go for it.

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CTS-VD
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:36 am

don't always have to put it on the floor that's all I'm saying.

and if I only had the means. with a million horsepower to throw away I would still love tiptoeing it around the touge.




so what's the perfect # then?
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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:50 am

hmmm an even better question?

prob depends on the driver. or maybe only enough power so that you can't lose traction if you floor it in 3rd or something...that way you know you have enough grip/traction to control the power and the car.

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SPARTA
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:53 am

Are you kidding? 1000hp car will not handle at all. You'd shoot right off of the first turn, unless you drive really slow. The touge is about revving the hell out of your car. In order to 'not' use a majority of your power you'd be running slow as hell. You'd pretty much get it up to speed and then use its handling to maintain that speed like you would an underpowered car. The moment you try to get on it out of a turn you'd shoot off like a rocket. I don't think it'd even be safe to open it up in the straights. Common, 9 sec, 150+ mph in 1/4 car simply wouldn't be able to slow down in time for the next turn seeing how those cars require parachutes. I understand that different cars vary, like a high hp supra isn't going to drive like a high hp porsche (etc), but there is a limit to actually be 'successful' on the touge. Sure it can be done if you are just sightseeing and want to drive slow as balls but 1000 hp (maybe even like 800) would be overkill. I think 500 would be the cap on most good handling cars. That way you aren't babying it too much to avoid using the grunt of the power.

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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:30 am

I do recall the owner of Forged Performance in Marietta coming up with us one day. He was doing pretty well in his 750hp 350Zed. (he could have turned down the boost though, which completely negates this story). But jason who was only pushing like 320 or so at the time was able to pull on him in the corners and only lose ground slightly to him in the straights. So take what you want from that.

I think the real question is what is the magic number...but I don't think it is a fixed number for all cars but more a certain number for each different car. Based on tire grip, handling, braking, the power shouldn't allow the car to exceed the potential of any of the others.

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leadfoot_mf
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:34 am

i disagree. there is no such answer for touge. the question is power per platform. 500hp in a miata is too much but 500hp in a vette is too little.

the correct answer is the most power that a chassis can use effectively.
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leadfoot_mf
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:36 am

Keegan wrote:
I do recall the owner of Forged Performance in Marietta coming up with us one day. He was doing pretty well in his 750hp 350Zed. (he could have turned down the boost though, which completely negates this story). But jason who was only pushing like 320 or so at the time was able to pull on him in the corners and only lose ground slightly to him in the straights. So take what you want from that.

I think the real question is what is the magic number...but I don't think it is a fixed number for all cars but more a certain number for each different car. Based on tire grip, handling, braking, the power shouldn't allow the car to exceed the potential of any of the others.

well at lot of that is the driver jason knows the road shariff (sp) i think it was his first time up there.
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CTS-VD
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:03 am

thankyou

this is all i've been trying to say. I personally just had to chime in because it thought it was kinda rude and discouraging to just tell someone there car has too much power for the touge.

I didn't initially say the 1000hp figure I only argued it for the sake of it.

why don't you just tell the new guy to get the hell out, rather than make him feel welcome. maybe he'd be the best pairing for you to run with but you wouldn't know it cause maybe he'll never come out. since he has too much power and all.

look even if I was in the mountains borrowing my moms honda pilot and I got to the the twistys, I would still cut up in it and have a good time.

I think it wasn't long ago you were rocking a mr2 that wouldn't stay with these guys over the first pass would I say you don't have enough power for the touge?!?!? no cause there is petty much no such thing. if you can make up and over then bring it, come on out, be safe and smart and have a good time.

just had to argue it for the sake of it. they have high horsepower unlimited classes in hill climbs and at pikes peak for a reason cause the power in the right package can be put to use. but that's not why I chimed in

my two cents. not trying to be a dick or anything.

to be honest my sedan's weight is more of a problem and handful than I would think excess power would be (that's why I'm building a new car)

peace!
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:05 am

HP is in no way a reflection of cornering ability. If you have a 1000 hp 'vette with the same suspension mods as a 400 hp 'vette, they will handle the same. Power is not a handicap ... the driver is. With more power, you brake earlier and roll on the throttle more cautiously, but otherwise it's the exact same car.

HP is never a handicap if you consider it in the technical sense. More hp simply gives you the ability to use 100% traction in all areas, unlike lower powered cars, which can only reach/break 100% traction in cornering and braking, not accelerating. If a driver could consistently control the car and push the tires 100% when braking, cornering and acceleration, they would be faster. Of course, this is not considering proper lines.

HP limitations are based on what the driver can handle. I'm around 330 - 340 or so and I could handle a bit more. Maybe 400 or 450 with some practice. I wouldn't feel comfortable or safe w/ 500 hp on the touge. This is based on my current car ... I would be able to handle less in something like a 'Vette or MR2.

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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:13 am

leadfoot_mf wrote:
i disagree. there is no such answer for touge. the question is power per platform. 500hp in a miata is too much but 500hp in a vette is too little.

the correct answer is the most power that a chassis can use effectively.

that's a good way to put it, I agree.

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leadfoot_mf
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:15 am

CTS-VD wrote:
thankyou

this is all i've been trying to say. I personally just had to chime in because it thought it was kinda rude and discouraging to just tell someone there car has too much power for the touge.

I didn't initially say the 1000hp figure I only argued it for the sake of it.

why don't you just tell the new guy to get the hell out, rather than make him feel welcome. maybe he'd be the best pairing for you to run with but you wouldn't know it cause maybe he'll never come out. since he has too much power and all.

look even if I was in the mountains borrowing my moms honda pilot and I got to the the twistys, I would still cut up in it and have a good time.

I think it wasn't long ago you were rocking a mr2 that wouldn't stay with these guys over the first pass would I say you don't have enough power for the touge?!?!? no cause there is petty much no such thing. if you can make up and over then bring it, come on out, be safe and smart and have a good time.

just had to argue it for the sake of it. they have high horsepower unlimited classes in hill climbs and at pikes peak for a reason cause the power in the right package can be put to use. but that's not why I chimed in

my two cents. not trying to be a dick or anything.

to be honest my sedan's weight is more of a problem and handful than I would think excess power would be (that's why I'm building a new car)

peace!

dont worry about andy he will be back he is hooked. lol
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Keegan
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:22 am

that's good to hear...as i said earlier, i'm not going to tell someone their car has too much power for what we do.

And I also agree with matt. I personally wouldn't enjoy driving a high horsepower car...mainly cause at the present moment I wouldn't be used to it. and it would be less fun and TOO challenging to enjoy the drive.

all good points, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:29 am

I agree ... it's possible to handle, but how much fun would it be fighting the car the entire way? The best drivers are constantly correcting for minor slip and are constantly at the limit ... but it's their job. I don't want to go to work when I take on the twisties.

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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:32 am

its true that it really comes down to driver
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leadfoot_mf
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:01 am

well if you saw the stig in the chaterham thats the kind of power i want to try and control.
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leadfoot_mf
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:24 am

i disagree. there is no such answer for touge. the question is power per platform. 500hp in a miata is too much but 500hp in a vette is too little.

the correct answer is the most power that a chassis can use effectively.
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Jake
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PostSubject: Re: Too much power for touge?   Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:26 am

i would have to agree that there are different acceptable power levels for each platform, and i would also have to agree that the bottom line is it all comes down to the driver.

por ejemple: i am by no means the best driver in the mountains, but i can hang with the best of them in the corners. I personally would not feel safe with anything more than a 400(ish)HP subaru with the best coilover/suspension setup out there and I would be perfectly happy with a light(er) 300-350hp L/RS platform with all supporting mods. anything more than that on those particular platforms is overkill and you wouldn't use much more than that power ever up there.

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