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scars_of_carma
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PostSubject: The Pace of Touge   Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:43 pm

I think its wise to think about what your purpose and pace is going to be before you go out for a drive. A fun-run is not the same as practice, testing or touge-time-attack.

Fun Run
Fun-runs are what touge is all about. They are supposed to be enjoyable and exciting. That does not mean you should be full-throttle and white-knuckled holding your breath around every turn. The touge is all about 7/10th's driving. If 7/10th's is not fun anymore see below and practice. Then try again.

Practice
If you are going out for practice decide what you want to learn and focus on one thing at a time. That's the same thing I tell driving students at the racetrack... You take the biggest risk when you decide to drive as fast as possible just to find out what might happen... Start at 7/10th's and very carefully push the limit of 7/10th's until you feel challenged but not overwhelmed. Stay there until it ceases to become a challenge. Then pat yourself on the back because your 7/10th's limit has been increased. 7/10th's should now be good enough for fun-runs again.

Testing
When going out for testing don't assume any changes you make are for the better until you test them safely first. In other words don't immediately drive at a pace that will put yourself in a bad situation if there's something wrong with an untested setup. If you feel safe enough to go for a fun run after that go ahead. However If your changes actually do make your car faster don't increase your 7/10th's limit yet and do not immediately attempt a time-attack. Stop. Pat yourself on the back and start practicing again. Go for fun-runs later and when you are really comfortable with the new setup maybe go for a time-attack.

Touge Time Attack
A touge time-attack isn't against the spirit of the sport if you take it very seriously. That means...

- Do not attempt a time attack unless you are supremely confident in your cars performance and safety. Ideally your 10/10th's should be significantly less then your cars 10/10th's.

- Do not attempt a time attack on a course that overwhelms your car. It's not worth your life to prove your Hachi can achieve the same pace as an FD if you have to drive it like Takumi...

- Scout the course first. Then go for a practice run. Then try a fun run. Yes that means you should drive the course 3 times before you attempt a time attack just to be sure you're ready and willing.

- You should do your time-attack run solo with minimal distractions.

- Have a safety car follow you at a safe distance. (That means a car with 4 seats occupied by 2 people who are capable of pulling you out of a burning vehicle and carrying you to safety)

- The reason for the time attack is to prove to yourself that you have mastered a course by achieving your best pace. NOT to prove that you achieved the best pace humanly possible. If you want to prove that go to a racetrack to get your speed fix.

- Time your run somehow. You do not want to have to do this again to quantify what your best pace is. If you do it again later on it's because you want to try it in a different vehicle or becuase you think you can do much better. The only way you can prove that is knowing exactly how fast you are in the present.

- Have your priorities in order. If you aren't willing to crash go to a racetrack for time attack.

7/10th's

99% of the time I drive alone so I admit I haven't followed most of ^ these rules. 7/10th's driving is done mostly because you don't want to put others in danger. However the question I end up asking myself after a while is am I really increasing my 7/10th's or am I just comfortable driving at 8/10th's more often?

When you drive the touge every single day you get bored and complacent with 7/10th's quickly. I even worry that 7/10ths on my home course is too fast and I will have to stop practicing here altogether or end up with a deer in my windshield...

That being said, I think a good rule of thumb is when 7/10th's becomes felony-speeding/wreckless driving you need to start over somewhere else. However when 7/10th's in general becomes wreckless what are you supposed to do?

I am starting to think that the 7/10ths rule is only wise for beginners... I might have to start thinking of practice sessions like time attack and I might have to avoid time attack altogether unless I ignore my own rules of safety.

Honestly I worry about all of us. It doesn't matter if you're really good or you're just trying to be really good the risks we end up taking for a thrill are just crazy...
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bug-rex

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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:44 pm

Cool post.

scars_of_carma wrote:
7/10th's driving is done mostly because you don't want to put others in danger.

That and I don't want to put myself or my car in danger.
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leadfoot_mf
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:16 pm

"Honestly I worry about all of us. It doesn't matter if you're really good or you're just trying to be really good the risks we end up taking for a thrill are just crazy..."

i think about this all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:42 pm

leadfoot_mf wrote:
"Honestly I worry about all of us. It doesn't matter if you're really good or you're just trying to be really good the risks we end up taking for a thrill are just crazy..."

i think about this all the time.

yea ive been thinking about this too. After i went on that 240 newb run and read some of the posts from newbies perspective as well as seeing first hand people that go out tryin too hard it crossed my mind that maybe us die hard mountain runners can go out of line. Atleast to everyone else we look like assholes. This forum has had its fair share of wrecks and fortunately no harm was done except the loss of some sick rides. I dont even think legal troubles have come from our antics.

I think this is why this forum has so many people come and go because they realize this isnt about just cruising and actually takes some skill and bravery along with knowing when too much is enough.

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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:56 am

copied my reply from define

I can't say I agree with much of this, especially time attack, I refuse to drive at the limit in an uncontrolled environment.

Instead of ten tenth's, I got by how I am driving.

One hand on the wheel, and only down shifting for hairpins - recce pace
Two hands on the wheel, and only downshifting for hair pins - fun/passenger pace
One hand and aggresive shifting - pretty much maximum safe pace
Two hands and aggressive shifting - I am reaching the limit, and I will back off

Anytime I plan on running I do 1-3 recce runs, even this is insufficient, due to the nature of touge.


On the time attack, seriously ID isn't real, if you want to set a record, go to a race track or a sponsored event. HC's and tarmac rallies are great examples. In my experiences, the guy who is driving to impress or show off, is the guy who eats a wall or runs off. I know I posted up about the timer app I am using, and it makes me seem hypocritical, just know its for fun. Hell I used it to time my drive to work today. I don't go to set any records, I just do it for fun.


All this said, only you know your limits, and only you know how fast you want to go, if you exceed these limits be prepared for the consequences.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:08 am

Wangan_X wrote:
copied my reply from define

I can't say I agree with much of this, especially time attack, I refuse to drive at the limit in an uncontrolled environment.

Instead of ten tenth's, I got by how I am driving.

One hand on the wheel, and only down shifting for hairpins - recce pace
Two hands on the wheel, and only downshifting for hair pins - fun/passenger pace
One hand and aggresive shifting - pretty much maximum safe pace
Two hands and aggressive shifting - I am reaching the limit, and I will back off

Anytime I plan on running I do 1-3 recce runs, even this is insufficient, due to the nature of touge.


On the time attack, seriously ID isn't real, if you want to set a record, go to a race track or a sponsored event. HC's and tarmac rallies are great examples. In my experiences, the guy who is driving to impress or show off, is the guy who eats a wall or runs off. I know I posted up about the timer app I am using, and it makes me seem hypocritical, just know its for fun. Hell I used it to time my drive to work today. I don't go to set any records, I just do it for fun.


All this said, only you know your limits, and only you know how fast you want to go, if you exceed these limits be prepared for the consequences.

good post

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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:51 am

i run how i feel like at that given moment
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:04 am

bomjoon wrote:
i run how i feel like at that given moment
same here. Plus that and traffic

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scars_of_carma
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PostSubject: The Pace of Touge Cont.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:03 am

SPARTA wrote:
leadfoot_mf wrote:
"Honestly I worry about all of us. It doesn't matter if you're really good or you're just trying to be really good the risks we end up taking for a thrill are just crazy..."

i think about this all the time.
yea ive been thinking about this too. ...it crossed my mind that maybe us die hard mountain runners can go out of line.
I think about this all the time.

SPARTA wrote:

I think this is why this forum has so many people come and go because they realize this isnt about just cruising and actually takes some skill and bravery along with knowing when too much is enough.
I think the difference between me and most touge drivers is I started at rock bottom. When I think back on my early days of practice runs it really makes me laugh. I was so slow and I didn't know anything.

I almost died in a crash on the touge as soon as I got my license because I was doing fun runs first instead of practice runs. Thus when I started doing practice runs years later it really kept me humble and focused on learning at my own pace.

Also I've always ran alone so I don't have the urge to show off or impress anyone which also keeps me focused on my driving and noone elses. (except for traffic of course)


Wangan_X wrote:

Instead of ten tenth's, I got by how I am driving.

One hand on the wheel, and only down shifting for hairpins - recce pace
Two hands on the wheel, and only downshifting for hair pins - fun/passenger pace
One hand and aggresive shifting - pretty much maximum safe pace
Two hands and aggressive shifting - I am reaching the limit, and I will back off
^ this is true for for me as well. However I think my issue is I keep downgrading cars. For instance just because I can drive my Honda at the same pace as previous builds doesn't mean I should. That pace takes more out of this car. If I get into trouble I'd like to know there is a little more grip left or a little more braking left etc. I feel spoiled by BMW's, Supras and RX7's.

I've always said it's better to run touge in something challenging to drive because you learn more. I still think that's true but the reality is pushing a stock car to the limits you previously set in a modified car is not the same thing.

Wangan_X wrote:

Anytime I plan on running I do 1-3 recce runs, even this is insufficient, due to the nature of touge.
Can you ellaborate more on this?

Wangan_X wrote:

I know I posted up about the timer app I am using, and it makes me seem hypocritical, just know its for fun. Hell I used it to time my drive to work today. I don't go to set any records, I just do it for fun.
Common be honest. When you drive on your home course do you not know in the back of your mind what your best and previous run time was? And afterwards do you not glance down to see what your present run time was and then think about why that is? What's wrong with that?

Wangan_X wrote:

All this said, only you know your limits, and only you know how fast you want to go, if you exceed these limits be prepared for the consequences.
...If you know you want to go too fast and exceed your limits be prepared for the consequences? If you didn't notice I pretty much said the same thing talking about practice runs. Trying to exceed your limits in a fun run is worse then trying to do the same thing in practice or a time attack however. If your goal is to achieve thrills be careful what you wish for lol

bomjoon wrote:
i run how i feel like at that given moment
And this is usually when I get into trouble. If I know I feel like driving at a quick pace it helps me to put myself into a "mode" beforehand. This reminds me to do things in preperation I might have previously overlooked... like checking tire pressure for instance. Also I will try and do a scouting cruise first where I otherwise might not have.


Last edited by scarsofcarma on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixing formatting)
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scars_of_carma
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:07 am

^ crap can a mod fix my Quotes? I can't edit my posts...
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specVance
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:32 pm

scouting is such a good thing and also something we do not often do as a group. However, radios help with that.

The nature fo the touge, I think, refers to the fact that it is not prepped and it is not maintained. A road can be different from one lap to the next. what if a branch falls?

Dana, What were the comments from the newbs aboput your pace and all that?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:18 pm

specVance wrote:
scouting is such a good thing and also something we do not often do as a group. However, radios help with that.

The nature fo the touge, I think, refers to the fact that it is not prepped and it is not maintained. A road can be different from one lap to the next. what if a branch falls?

Dana, What were the comments from the newbs aboput your pace and all that?

noone pointed fingers at me directly but a few people were appalled by how fast a few of us were driving, me and evan were the fastest there so i can only assume that they were talking about us(even though we followed our rules and were courteous to other drivers on the rd). Some of the other comments were directed at alot of the 240 drivers driving outside of their limits and almost causing accidents and f**k ups.

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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:08 pm

i drive 10/10 on the hwy...


i drive harder/faster on streets than on the mts...

f**k yeah~!
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:50 pm

NARX3 wrote:
Can you ellaborate more on this?
Certainly, touge is not a safe or controlled environment, branches can fall, animals can run out, hell even bums can show up.
NARX3 wrote:
LOL about the bums... they are everywhere! :eek: Thanks for clarifying cause when you said doing 3 fun runs was insufficient I thought you were implying that you should do more then that.

NARX3 wrote:
Common be honest. When you drive on your home course do you not know in the back of your mind what your best and previous run time was? And afterwards do you not glance down to see what your present run time was and then think about why that is? What's wrong with that?

I can honestly say I don't, I haven't the slightest inkling to. I ride touge for fun, I know I am a good driver, I don't need to prove it to anyone or myself.

NARX3 wrote:
...If you know you want to go too fast and exceed your limits be prepared for the consequences? If you didn't notice I pretty much said the same thing talking about practice runs. Trying to exceed your limits in a fun run is worse then trying to do the same thing in practice or a time attack however. If your goal is to achieve thrills be careful what you wish for lol

I guess what I am saying is, I only do fun runs, I'd rather video and take pics than push myself out there. I will say this, I know the cars limits will be reached well before my own. I do plan on upgrading the suspension among others.

NARX3 wrote:
I think I test myself more then you do on a regular basis. I don't see this as a bad thing but I know its not a good thing either. Just a preference thing.
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:53 pm

I didn't bother with recce runs at the dragon because anyone who has been there knows how crowded it is, but, I am a firm believer in recon.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:13 pm

what the Fuckk is that? I shoulda changed your name to swervin ervin! LMAO

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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:33 pm

lol...

whats matt's nickname?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:02 am

What are recce runs?

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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:18 am

runs while eating reces cups
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:22 am

Lol

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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:38 am

i believe it is to scout out. like to venture out
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:42 am

Recce - Reconaisance, recce is the terminology used during Rally

Swervin Ervin... thats my Rally nickname... Deek
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:30 pm

A Recce run is a scouting run ... you drive the course slowly to remind yourself of the corners and to make sure there are no unsuspected hazards in the way.

I don't has a nickname.

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scars_of_carma
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:33 pm

[Quote=Erv] Recce - Reconaisance, recce is the terminology used during Rally[/quote]

TouringBubble wrote:
A Recce run is a scouting run ...

just curious does this term have a wierd pronunciation?
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PostSubject: Re: The Pace of Touge   Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:41 pm

Wrek-ee

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