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 I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?

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C_wagginz




PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Sun May 16, 2010 2:45 pm

If you're left foot braking and need to downshift, how do you do this effectively? Is this where the "Toe - Heel" comes into play?
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Minnoe07
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Sun May 16, 2010 9:40 pm

If you are left foot braking, you use your right foot on the accelerator to increase RPM's to match the rev's that you would be going to.

Heel and toe is for people who don't know how to use left foot braking (like me). There are multiple ways to do it, especially depending on the size of your foot and the size of the pedals, but I use the ball of my right foot to brake, and rotate my foot around and use the right side of my foot towards the small toe to throttle up.

In this case heel and toe in a misnomer because you don't use the heel or toe. Really just the ball of your foot. Youtube should have some good videos of it.
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Minnoe07
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Sun May 16, 2010 9:43 pm

Well, I can't seem to edit my post but I read that post wrong. Yes, use heel and toe when changing gears since obviously you only have two feet. I'm stupid.
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C_wagginz




PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Sun May 16, 2010 10:13 pm

Minnoe07 wrote:

Heel and toe is for people who don't know how to use left foot braking (like me). There are multiple ways to do it, especially depending on the size of your foot and the size of the pedals, but I use the ball of my right foot to brake, and rotate my foot around and use the right side of my foot towards the small toe to throttle up.


Isn't this method a little more difficult when the pedals are differing heights?
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ghostrat
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Sun May 16, 2010 11:24 pm

I use my right foot for heel-and-toe to downshift, then switch feet on the brake pedal as I enter the curve and use 'left foot braking' for a variety of reasons.

As for the original topic, I find the best way to pull in a big oversteer is to use brake and gas at the same time. If the car is pulling back on line too quickly, I can keep the brake even and lift on the gas to stabilize the back. Either way, I bleed off the brake with even throttle to keep the car in a mild oversteer.
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ghostrat
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Sun May 16, 2010 11:33 pm

Keep in mind, I've rarely driven an AWD or FWD car fast so my techniques aren't as refined in that area.
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emperor666
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 12:45 pm

C_wagginz wrote:
If you're left foot braking and need to downshift, how do you do this effectively? Is this where the "Toe - Heel" comes into play?

You shouldn't have to shift in mid corner and that's where most sideway action happens. You should be in right gear when you came into corner, then to go through it as fast as you possibly can you use your left foot on brake and right on accelerator to balance car in between under and over steer.
Plus you can always go back again to clutch if you really need to.
Toe-heel is used in section when you downshift coming closer to corner and main reason of heal-toe is to match rpm for lower gears to prevent wheel lock, and also to use engine to brake faster before reaching corner itself. Also when done properly then once you've done last downshift you in right gear and rpm and just coming into corner, then you go with your left foot to brake and use it as explained above.


Last edited by emperor666 on Mon May 17, 2010 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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emperor666
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 12:51 pm

Minnoe07 wrote:
If you are left foot braking, you use your right foot on the accelerator to increase RPM's to match the rev's that you would be going to.

Heel and toe is for people who don't know how to use left foot braking (like me). There are multiple ways to do it, especially depending on the size of your foot and the size of the pedals, but I use the ball of my right foot to brake, and rotate my foot around and use the right side of my foot towards the small toe to throttle up.

In this case heel and toe in a misnomer because you don't use the heel or toe. Really just the ball of your foot. Youtube should have some good videos of it.

With all due respect you totally misunderstood left foot braking.
It is not to match any rpm's, if you will press accelerator when on brake and then release brake then you will send car into slide.
Left foot braking is to balance car in between over and under steer.
When you accelerate weight shift to back and when you brake it shifts towards front, plus of course lateral forces when in mid corner.
That's what left foot braking is for.
My recommendations:

Book "Physics of racing" don't remember author, have it iin PDF somewhere.
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~The_Duke~
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 2:50 pm

^^^ Alex is correct. That is what left foot braking is for.
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emperor666
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 3:20 pm

I think I should find "Physics of racing" and post it in some section as PDF for everybody to read, this way we will educate.
We need new private section that we can post books about engine building and racing, I have few of these.
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SPARTA
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 4:03 pm

Ill make it happen alex

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ghostrat
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 4:57 pm

I'd like to add that if a car has good brake balance you can bleed off the brake at the same moment you're squeezing on the throttle to make the transition from negative pitch to positive pitch more gradual.
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 5:06 pm

Do you guys seriously left-foot brake in the mountains? It seems like a LOT of work to do it effectively in that kind of situation ... constant shifting.

I've tried it at autocross and it honestly never made me much faster. Maybe it would if I gave it time. For now I just plan for the turbo lag and balance the car with the throttle if needed. At those low speeds it's pretty easy to keep it balanced, even under harsh transitions if your feet and hands are quick enough.

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J_P
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 5:34 pm

I haven't ventured into left foot braking much yet just heel toe when entering a corner. Good info Alex, and I agree we need a private section to share material we shouldn't just be putting out on the web.
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Minnoe07
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 5:49 pm

No, I was wrong on that whole section. My apology was for pretty much everything in that first post. It was all wrong, for the most part.
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ghostrat
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 6:04 pm

TouringBubble wrote:
Do you guys seriously left-foot brake in the mountains? It seems like a LOT of work to do it effectively in that kind of situation ... constant shifting.

I've tried it at autocross and it honestly never made me much faster. Maybe it would if I gave it time. For now I just plan for the turbo lag and balance the car with the throttle if needed. At those low speeds it's pretty easy to keep it balanced, even under harsh transitions if your feet and hands are quick enough.

I do most of my fast driving on gravel or dirt, and I use both feet for the brakes every time I drive fast or just driving around. Practice it enough and it's not any more work.

Plus, being able to dampen oversteer instantly because you have a foot poised over the brake pedal is pretty important when you're trying to stay in your lane Wink
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Minnoe07
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 9:10 pm

I'd have to say left foot braking is a very important technique to have. Having said that, I don't have the patience to learn it. Tried it a couple of times, and after a few lurches, just quit.
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C_wagginz




PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 9:32 pm

From my experience good left foot braking comes with knowing the car...how the brakes respond, how the suspension moves, etc.

As stated above...

If you feel how the car is shifting in the turn you can accelerate and brake as needed to follow your "line" around the turn.

Practice makes perfect...that is perfect practice makes perfect...
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~The_Duke~
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 9:48 pm

C_wagginz wrote:
Practice makes perfect...that is perfect practice makes perfect...

Whom ever said that the first time is awesome!
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 11:03 pm

C_wagginz wrote:
If you feel how the car is shifting in the turn you can accelerate and brake as needed to follow your "line" around the turn.

But I can do that just fine without left-foot braking. The only benefit that I can see for left foot braking is the ability to balance the car while keeping the turbo spooled, or to induce oversteer in a overly understeer biased car.

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ghostrat
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 11:21 pm

Left-foot braking has always been a 'some people use it, some people don't' kind of thing.
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Lonewolfjulez
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Mon May 17, 2010 11:48 pm

Besides keeping the car level during corners does it effect reaction time? I have tried it. But never to that extreme
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Tue May 18, 2010 9:36 am

I'm sure it does in some cases. You don't have to move your right foot over to brake, so that would definitely save time. But, in a corner you shouldn't need to do that really.

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IdiotPilot
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Tue May 18, 2010 10:51 am

You guys have it all wrong....

1- Plant right foot into floorboard
2- ?????
3- Profit


There are several factors to the initial question and they make it hard to really give one solid answer. The fact that you have ABS changes things as well. Since I'v enever had a car with such black magic, let me ask this- Can one lock all 4 up when sideways with ABS? If so, that would be the wise decision if you're beyond the point of recovery. Locking all 4 will give you a little more control on directing where you want to go as well as 'stall' the drift. If you need to keep the car turning (not rotating) to stay on the road, lightly holding the brakes down to keep the slide and scrub speed can work. Or you can stand back on the gas and power out of it.

It also depends on if you're still on the throttle or not. Lifting could add grip and snap the car back around (this must be planned and the snap-oversteer countered quickly). If you're sliding and not on the throttle, you can use the brakes or stay off the pedal. But like I said, there are too many factors to give an answer.
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Minnoe07
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Tue May 18, 2010 4:40 pm

If you brake really hard and turn in at the same time, the ABS will not stop you from having your rear end slid out. But between that stability control, it won't let you.
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~The_Duke~
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PostSubject: Re: I've lost it!!! Now what do I do?   Tue May 18, 2010 5:10 pm

If you have stability control.
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