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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:34 am

Thoughts? When do you reach the point of "too much power?"

I think the concept really depends on the skill of the driver and the venue, and I think most would agree. Drag cars with 9 billion horsepower are fine ... they just go straight. As long as it's aligned well, a novice driver can hold a tame drag car in the lane. Tires are most important here ...

I'm talking about the stuff we do ... corners. Sweepers, hairpins, chicanes, esses. Is your car reaching a point where it's beyond your ability?

there have been times where my car felt "undriveable" at auto-x events. The boost comes on quick and will easily power in to oversteer if you let it. the problem wasn't the car though ... it was me. I was eager and rolling on the throttle a bit too soon. Once I calmed down the car was manageable again and I was faster. Once I had it under control I push more and more, to the point where I had controllable oversteer on exit and could use it to my advantage.

So, a novice driver is likely not able to handle a 300ft/lb car, but it can be done with a little patience and skill building. but, what about 350ft/lb? 400? 600?

I think in an autocross arena, 400 ft/lb (especially in a turbo car) is about the limit. Hold that through the mid range and get some sticky rubber and you've got a beast of an SM car. Even with tons of suspension work and 335s on all 4 corners, more than say 450 ft/lb would be working against you ... you'd just be fighting to keep it in line rather than driving.

Now, on a track more can be handled, but HP is the key here. It's about the straights, not the corners. A 300 ft/lb car could likely hang with a 500 ft/lb car if they both had a broad 600 hp curve. You'll hit the same issues as in auto-x with high tq ... fighting to keep the line out of a corner. A 300 ft/lb car will be on the throttle earlier and likely have the edge out of the corner over the 500 ft/lb car. Then they'd be nearly even on the straight with the lower tq car having a slight jump at the start ... that leads to similar times.

For me, I don't think I'd want more than about 450hp on the track with my current skill level. I drove ~300 hp on TGPR and was fine ... I found it easy even. Not once was I worried about the speeds I reached (around 114 on the back straight). The lines were easy to hold and I could apply the power right at the apex if I wanted. I think adding 100 hp to that would be close to the edge for me and another 50 would probably scare me a little at the limit.

What do you guys think?

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Grocery Grip
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:48 am

Bubble:

Leave it up to you to get all technical(have you considered writing for Car& Driver?)

To be honest, i've always like the best of both worlds:

-Democrat/Repub
-JDM/Domestic
-xbox/ps3
-awd/fr/ff

Power/Control is a VERY thin line. I've always asked myself what's the most amount of POWER i need to maintain CONTROL. Owning a FF, i have to respect....err observe the threshold with caution. For FF cars, the 'recommended' POWER limit to maintain CONTROL is 300-350whp. FR cars are like 350whp if weighs less then 3000lbs to 550whp(if over 3200lbs). AWD cars on the otherhand are a lot like FR cars..They handle HP well but you still have to exercise caution...The ONLY way i'd recommend past 550whp in AWD is if you're a drag queen. Road Courses should be no more than 450whp thats already well over 500HP flywheel anyway.....I've never been a person that wanted to 'Upset' the balance of my car...besides our passion is the curves and so i say be VERY conservative on adding HP with your car.....


P.S.- Bubble based on the hp numbers you advertised for your Deebo, you/re already well in the 12's
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:50 am

Grocery Grip wrote:
P.S.- Bubble based on the hp numbers you advertised for your Deebo, you/re already well in the 12's

12.24 on my old setup ... It's got 11's in it. Like I said ... 1.7 60's on street tires. =)

However, this is a street car, not a drag queen. I've done suspension work (GTWorx springs, WL F and R sways, Cusco plates) as well as power mods and the car is manageable now that I've learned to drive it.

Torque pushing you back in the seat is nice, but doing the same out of an apex is even better ...

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Grocery Grip
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:02 pm

Point taken Read my post above yours......

Bubble Quote:

"Torque pushing you back in the seat is nice, but doing the same out of an apex is even better ..."

I agree 250%.....power is great on a high speed road course.....but since we like mtns i think 350whp is overkill.....


There is a Guy who drives an S2000CR who lives up near the tail...i NEVER seen a guy drive his car like that!.....it was awesome!...He used every bit of that car dude.....it also isn't fair that he lives up there.....lol

But what i'm saying is that guy in his stock CR was out manuvering seasoned touge guys with 1000's in mods and with twice the power
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:19 pm

Well, most people don't drive 100% in the mountains ... at least the smart ones don't. Compare any real touge battle with our trims to the mountains ... no comparison. We might drive 60% of ourselves and 50% of the car, where the real touge guys drive 100%. But, it's not their car and it's on a closed road with tons of safety gear.

I agree with you, but you have to consider that having 350 hp doesn't mean you have to use it. You only use full power on the straights or huge sweepers ... and almost never in the mountains. Touge is a lot like Auto-X ... a little faster with much less room for error. That's why I used Auto-X in my original post.

In corners, HP is irrelevant and grip takes over. A Miata or S2000 should murder most cars up there. Very low CoG, light weight, low torque. this make a car easy to drive in corners.

With touge, the limit has as much to do with traffic, weather and road conditions as drivers and cars.

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Grocery Grip
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:38 pm

Agree
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bomjoon
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:33 pm

with enough power control follows.

99.9999% of the time.
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:34 pm

well, just to put it in view remember our run through lil river Matt, you ate me alive on the straights but every corner i could close the gap and out brake you. Its a standard theory, however, it is also a differing application for up and down hill. 350whp isn't enough to run fast on a uphill whereas 200-250whp is more than enough on a downhill run.

Back to auto x, look at the faster cars, 95% of them are 120-150whp car at best. Look at Waight (off tangent) 155whp and that car will NOT break traction, ever.

BTW, speaking of touge, you need tires, I have a new course to run. It's awesome.
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bomjoon
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:41 pm

you cant out run noone erv.

uphil is where the fun is at. you can push the car to its limits.

downhill.... well lets just say i dont wanna die yet.

i like the combination of up and down hills.
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:46 pm

you sucks horribly

come run the new touge Joey. I ain't scurred of you. I may even fix the mr2 just to show you how fast 120whp can be
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Jason
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:49 pm

You already know my philosophy."Balance is Key!"

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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:53 pm

I agree for downhill, balance is key. Uphill, hi power, strong brakes, and well set up suspension.
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mazeroth
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:59 pm

Jason wrote:
You already know my philosophy."Balance is Key!"

I've always been a go fast guy hence all the power mods but in the few times I've been to the mountains I enjoy taking curves much more now so this is a new learning experience for me. What I will do is try to learn as much as possible to get really good at it (it's just how I like to do things - I don't like to half a** things).

Right now I can easily tell I don't have the balance I need. I have too much power, most of which is unused at the mountains. I'm sure as I improve and familiarize myself with the roads I'll be able to use more power but even then I can only go full throttle on the straights for a couple seconds and only after the car is perfectly straight to not fly off the mountain.

I'll toss in knowledge as part of control as well. I need to understand how all these suspension parts work together and how they affect the control of the car to take advantage of the power. I should time myself doing a mountain pass now and see what I do in a year with some mods and more knowledge.
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bomjoon
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:01 pm

Wangan_X wrote:
you sucks horribly

come run the new touge Joey. I ain't scurred of you. I may even fix the mr2 just to show you how fast 120whp can be

you never ran with me and you assume im sacred of you?

especially to "your" mr2? if i lose to that car i'll give my car away.
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bomjoon
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:02 pm

where is teh new touge?
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mazeroth
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:03 pm

bomjoon wrote:
if i lose to that car i'll give my car away.

That's what they said about the 86...
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bomjoon
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:05 pm

lol

i dont care how good of a driver you are if you had that same car with same mods on the anime that car would have lost to lot of other cars on the movie.

like teh suby that the dad had.
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:09 pm

rofl's come on over I take your evo from you. So I will go get it fixed...
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:19 pm

Wangan_X wrote:
well, just to put it in view remember our run through lil river Matt, you ate me alive on the straights but every corner i could close the gap and out brake you. Its a standard theory, however, it is also a differing application for up and down hill. 350whp isn't enough to run fast on a uphill whereas 200-250whp is more than enough on a downhill run.

You're absolutely correct. You have the braking advantage, the CoG advantage and the weight advantage. I also had the wife-in-passenger-seat disadvantage. Neither of us were driving that hard, but your brakes did give out first ... lol. 12.5" Brembo's FTMFW!

Yeah, if we were really puching I'd probably own the MR2 on the uphill simply due to power. You'd easily take the downhill with skill and balls.

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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:21 pm

mazeroth wrote:
Jason wrote:
You already know my philosophy."Balance is Key!"

I've always been a go fast guy hence all the power mods but in the few times I've been to the mountains I enjoy taking curves much more now so this is a new learning experience for me. What I will do is try to learn as much as possible to get really good at it (it's just how I like to do things - I don't like to half a** things).

Right now I can easily tell I don't have the balance I need. I have too much power, most of which is unused at the mountains. I'm sure as I improve and familiarize myself with the roads I'll be able to use more power but even then I can only go full throttle on the straights for a couple seconds and only after the car is perfectly straight to not fly off the mountain.

I'll toss in knowledge as part of control as well. I need to understand how all these suspension parts work together and how they affect the control of the car to take advantage of the power. I should time myself doing a mountain pass now and see what I do in a year with some mods and more knowledge.

Knowledge is really the most important part I think ... you can learn the limit of the stock suspension and make it work with the power if you spend the time to learn. It's about seat time and building your skill.

But yes, like most people do, it's easy to overpower your suspension setup and negate the use of most of the power you have.

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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:22 pm

and lack of brains...

yah I need some 14" rotors... LOL, to stop less than 2k lbs
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bomjoon
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:22 pm

erv has no balls thats why he is able to do some crazy s***.

if he had reg sized balls he would be normal.
if he had dem bigguns ... well watch out world.
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:24 pm

Erv, where is the new touge? Google link?

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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:25 pm

he said it was like next to his house or something...

its his neighborhood subdivision. LOL
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:28 pm

pm'd cops are cracking down hard on the touges around here
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