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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:10 pm

TougeTuned wrote:
Getting the "weight past a certain point" IS snap over steer / pendulum Effect

I think that Ervin is trying to say that the car won't just spin for no reason ... it's always due to driver error or something that the driver didn't plan for. The car doesn't just let go in the middle of a corner unless provoked.
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Erv
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:40 pm

^bingo bango...

and by weight past a certain point... I meant, trying to transfer weight past the apex.... AWD's can do this because they will grab, MR's not so much. IE trying to force a car through the corner... wasn't speaking about slip angle or anything like that...

Sorry my clarity is lacking while at work...
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SPARTA
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:46 am

Mazeroth handles his beast quite well. I'm sure Drew will get there too with his new 450+ HP after some more seat time.

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specVance
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:55 am

160+ holla up right here. I hope it isn't too much for me on this next dragon run. haha. Power is all in how much you puch the throotle though. (of course) I can go with my sheesh to the floor for every corner exit because it won't freak out my self or my vehicle. Knowing your car in every situation is really the key I think. Maz (and most of you guys. ) knows what his car will do when provoked and knows what to do when it doesn't like his input.
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specVance
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:58 am

specVance wrote:
160+ holla up right here. I hope it isn't too much for me on this next dragon run. haha. Power is all in how much you push the throtle though. (of course) I can go with my sheesh to the floor and with a solid downshift for every corner because it won't freak out my self or my vehicle. Knowing your car in every situation is really the key I think. Maz (and most of you guys. ) knows what his car will do when provoked and knows what to do when it doesn't like his input.
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:59 am

^oops thought I was editing. ha
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SPARTA
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:57 pm

TTT, with some of the recent posts about engine builds, I thought I'd post this up for the newbs

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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:51 am

Lol ... I forgot I had written this. Good info throughout.

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J_P
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:46 am

Yeah a good read.
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crashtke
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:48 pm

Good stuff, but there is a little thing called the right foot. It will control the amount of power the car puts out. While I agree that if a new driver just floors their 500 hp car through the mountains, they will rapidly find themselves in a ditch, I think the same thing can be said for a 200 hp car or even a 100 hp car for that matter.

When I was in police training, we went through the advanced Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC for short). This was the high speed course and also included the pit maneuver (fun stuff!!!). Even a well set up Crown Vic with its mild 250 hp engine can be too much. It is much more about the skill of the driver than the car. I learned to push the car to its limits and found them a couple times! Thankfully this was a closed high speed road course and not the street or I would most likely not be hear typing.

The whole point being that if you push things too far and drive beyond your ability any car can get the better of you. If you learn to use on the necessary power a 500 hp car can be every bit as capable in the mountains as on the strip.

For my personal car, I am designing it to be fairly all around. For daily driving it probably will not be much above 500 hp. For the drag strip, I will most likely turn things up! The good part is I don't have to use all 500 or 600 hp if I don't want to, but it is there if I DO want it Smile
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Tireboi
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:56 pm

^^ best mod u can get is a good driver.
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:09 am

I completely agree with you ... but, why have 500 hp if you can't use it? That's really what I was speaking toward.

In my original post, I spoke about not being able to handle the 350-ish hp I had in an autocross setting. Now, I'm prefectly fine with around 400 hp in the same setting. I learned how to control it, but I can still use all 400 hp.

Last event, a local guy brought out his 700+ hp C6 Corvette track car. The car simply lit up the tires through most of the course. Due to that, and the fact that neither driver was really skilled at autocross, they placed VERY low in the times ... in the lower 40% I think for raw times. That was driver error, but also too much car for the course.

My basic point I guess us that, for most disciplines that involve corners, there is a point where you make too much power to use and it's not possible to push the car to 100%. Having to pedal the car through 30%-50% of a course will not make for fast times in any setting.

And I'm als 100% with you on the point of low power cars can be a handful. Hell, I looped Ervin's MR2 at autocross ... I think it was around 130hp ... can't remember. lol.

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breel
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:15 am

c**k the wheels to one side, dump the clutch at 5K and any ride will become wild. Well of course the trash can lids under the rear tires help if FWD.

I don't see the problem, besides a straight or long sweeper no 500HP car will take advantage of the full power it has on tap especially if it's a boosted car.
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:32 am

Well, on a track, where corner exit speeds are generally much faster, torque is applied in a much more civil manner (with the help of inertia) to the wheels and it's easier to put down power.

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crashtke
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:44 pm

I guess it just depends on what you are looking for. I would not hesitate to bet that 99% of the people on here will drive their cars somewhere other than the mountains the majority of the time. It is nice to be able to go to a road course, go the the mountains, go to the drag strip and play on the street and have a car that CAN do all of the above well.

One of the most important things I learned in police driver training is throttle modulation and control...well that and don't break too close to a turn Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:14 pm

Just about everyone on this site has modded their car with roadtrack/mountain driving in mind. You plan on having an all around fast car you better look into some big brake kits because any track that requires driving wont be as forgiving as a 10-11 sec pass down the drag strip

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crashtke
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:22 pm

Already in the plans. Although you would be surprised what getting good pads and rotors will do. But eventually I do plan on upgrading the entire rear end. Differential, axles, the works. I will say that there is definitely a place for 500 hp on the track.

The nice part about the system I am building now is that the turbo can be swapped for a smaller/bigger one in a matter of 30 minutes or so. 6 bolts, an oil line and a vband clasp and it is a done deal.

This should enable me to swap from anything from a 30R sized S200 SX twinscroll borg warner to a 4088R sized S366/S300sx sized turbo in a matter of minutes. Not only will this be nice for switching between different tracks, but I will be able to test out a variety of turbos. Initially I will just have something in between a 35R and a 4088R. But all the twinscroll Borg Warner turbos can be bolted in place of the existing turbo. It is like having multiple turbo kits in one!

My current plans for upgrade will include new shocks or coil overs, sways, rear brake upgrade, a full cage (eventually) and a variety of bushings. I think in the long run it should be a pretty good all around car.

But this thread is not about my build plans, it is about Power Vs. Control. I like both! My father had a friend years ago that drove a little TR3 at the local road race track. His little 100 hp tractor motor (that was what was in the Triumph TR3) used to lay the smack down on the Vettes. One day one of the Corvette guys said that is was just because his car was smaller and lighter. So they proceeded to swap cars. He then tore him a new one with the guys Corvette. After that, the Corvette guys came to him for track lessons Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:03 am

Cool sounds like you've got a plan

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2thAche
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:32 am

I think also there is a difference between 500HP in a large V8 and 500HP in a large-turbo 4cyl. And RWD vs AWD of course. A V8 can roll-on power very smoothly, wherever it is on the tach. Large-turbo 4s have do more shifting to stay in the power band, or be ready for the spike.

I'm used to AWD, but when I've ridden with good drivers in high HP 'Vettes on-track, I notice that there is ALOT of finesse going on between the right foot and steering wheel on corner exits. So I agree with whoever brought up the R foot thing, if you're good enough, more power is better.

In the mountains where we all run, IMO over 300-350 wheel is not helping the average driver, and over 400 wheel is not helping most people except those with alot of track time and a good right foot.

Then there's the whole issue of can your brakes handle the added load of slowing that s*** down.
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:49 am

Thanks for chiming in

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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:56 pm

Crash, how do you plan on handling tuning for the multiple turbo configurations?

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crashtke
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:59 pm

Well, I have Pro-tuner and a Cobb Access port. In addition to tuning cars for other people I also do my own Smile We are still looking into getting a dyno at the shop, Killshot Performance, but it is just not in the budget right this second. But I have been road tuning cars for years now with no problem.

It is possible that I will get a stand alone engine ECU also if the stock ecu can not handle or meet my goals. I am also a certified AEM standalone tuner.
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TouringBubble
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:01 am

Sounds like a plan. Was just thinking having to road tune for every turbo would be a pain ... lots of time invested just to try stuff out.

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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:11 am

To try stuff out, but also to have the tune done when I go from one turbo to the next for various tracks, conditions, etc. And honestly from the S256 to the S362 there will not be that much difference and then from the S362 to the S366 the difference won't be that huge. I will be able to use the same MAF housing. So once I get the initial one dialed in changes to that should be minimal.
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breel
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:03 am

Trust me he has plenty of experience of parts swap and retune on just my car alone.
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crashtke
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PostSubject: Re: Power vs. Control   Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:15 pm

What was it, like 15 maf housings you tried out in less than 6 months?
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